PerzyxIn-Game Rank 1 Post Whore
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re: LOOT SYSTEM
by Perzyx on 2008/11/04 15:46
Loot systems have been a big topic of debate lately in TNE's guild chat. /g is not the place to spam thoughts and feelings about DKP or Loot Council so to encourage people to post thoughts and ideas here on the website I thought I would share some things about our oncoming loot system in the expansion.
First I want to preface this with some idealism. Members of our guild should be strong dedicated raiders that raid for the purpose of progression and not loot. If your sole reason for playing Wow is to selfishly equip yourself with pixels of animated stats then you are in the wrong guild and should join Mutiny instead. We exist as a guild to help one another progress in TEAM COMPETITION. We succeed and fail as a team. And as a team, loot is not to benefit the individual, but to aid an individual to benefit the team.
No matter what loot system we choose it will be flawed. ALL SYSTEMS ARE FLAWED. All we can do is weigh the pros and cons of each system and choose one THAT WE FEEL IS BEST SUITED FOR US. While loot council has served us well the last couple months of The Burning Crusade.. with a fresh new start in WotLK, DKP or Suicide Kings might be better suited for the oncoming new 25 man content.
Let's get one thing out in the open first. /ROLL is the WORST system for raid progression. It does not incentivise or benefit raiders in anyway and only slows down progression. It is fine for 5 and 10 mans that are not scheduled progression raids. IT WILL NEVER BE USED BY TNE FOR 25 MAN PROGRESSION CONTENT! Anyone that would QQ about this topic should app with Mutiny asap as this guild will not be a good fit for you.
Now. DKP, Suicide Kings, or Loot Council? Anyone left in the guild after reading up to this point should be a TEAM PLAYER so there is that understanding of "sharing loot with DESERVING team members for the purpose of advancement". So let's talk about the pro's and cons of the different systems and how each one spurs progress and insentivizes hard work and dedication.
Pro's on DKP. Incentivizes people to be on-time, everytime, and prepared. Rewards those who work the hardest and contribute the most. Also incentives progression raids (new bosses). Is a system that if tracked accurately eliminates the greed-sensor in everyone that could potentially cry about unfairness in Loot council. Is a system that provides currency in obtaining loot.
Con's on DKP. Less motivating for raiders who have a difficult RL schedule and less motivating on new guildies/ raiders. MUST be tracked accurately or the whole system becomes grossly flawed. Does not allow for the same porgression speed as Loot Council. Individuals must be knowledgable of their own class and loot needs as they themselves bid. Can occasionally give loot to less benefiting players/ classes.
Pro's on Suicide Kings. Incentivises people to be at raid's. People know exactly when they are next in line for loot. Easier system to track. Less discouraging for new guild/ raid members.
Con's on Suicide Kings. Does not incentives as much being on time, prepared, and playing one's heart out nor being in progression raids (new content/ bosses) as DKP or Loot Council.
Pro's on Loot Council. Fastest method towards progression. Officers choose who is most deserving from loot based on attendance, dedication, and players skill. Officers also choose who the loot would most benefit.
Con's on Loot Council. Same amount of tracking is required as DKP otherwise it can become grossly flawed over time. Can create angst if/when players feel they have been overlooked for gear. Requires the officers to be knowledgable about the loot and who would be most benefited from it. Not as incentivising to being on time and prepared as DKP.
OK there you have it.... the start of a continual debate and QQ session on a topic that can never be 100% perfectly answered. Remember, there are benefits and flaws to all systems. We can only do our best by choosing one and sticking with it.
PLEASE LET ME MAKE ONE THING VERY CLEAR TO EVERYONE IN TNE. IF YOU FEEL THAT EITHER OF THE PROPOSED SYSTEMS WOULD PERSUADE TO LEAVE THE GUILD DUE TO IT... DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND LEAVE NOW. GQUIT AND APP WITH MUTINY. BY STAYING IN THE GUILD YOU ARE CONFIRMING THAT YOU ARE HERE FOR THE TEAM AND IN THE SPIRIT OF TEAM COMPETITION AND YOU ARE NOT HERE SOLELY FOR THE LOOT.
_________________ Part-time MM Hunter, Part-time Gigolo, All-the-time Sexxxy mo-fo
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re: LOOT SYSTEM
by weezman on 2008/11/04 17:13
Is this the right place to say that scheduling and selection are more of a concern to me? If it's not, oh well I said it anyways. ![twisted](images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif)
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PerzyxIn-Game Rank 1 Post Whore
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re: LOOT SYSTEM
by Perzyx on 2008/11/04 17:21
Not really, that is a whole other topic of debate. I would suggest opening a thread about it so we can discuss further... This thread is for Loot Systems.
I will say one thing though regarding your comment, the choices for who becomes a core raider vs the ones in the reserve or casual spots will be very different than it is now... we will have a 3 or 4 night progression raiding schedule and being a core raider will be determined by many factors including ability to make 80% or more of the raids. While there will be new opportunities for everyone, stricter rules will apply.
_________________ Part-time MM Hunter, Part-time Gigolo, All-the-time Sexxxy mo-fo
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re: LOOT SYSTEM
by Soleran on 2008/11/04 17:42
DKP
If this is a problem where over time more experienced raiders take a break or acquire a massive number of points you can always do a dkp with point decay.
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re: LOOT SYSTEM
by fonzycore on 2008/12/15 13:19
ive always been a fan of officer decision as long as its fair and officers dont whore themselves first or play favorites
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Acinas
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re: LOOT SYSTEM
by Acinas on 2008/12/15 15:42
Yeah, we do loot council pretty well, based on current gear, skill level, and "loot whoreness." We try to be as fair to everyone as we possibly can.
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Vitol
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re: LOOT SYSTEM
by Vitol on 2008/12/15 16:16
^^ Loot whore.... ![tongue out](images/smiles/icon_razz.gif)
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re: LOOT SYSTEM
by Alindrys on 2008/12/15 18:31
I too am a fan of loot council.
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Vitol
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re: LOOT SYSTEM
by Vitol on 2008/12/16 2:55
dkp is a bad thing imo...loot council works best imo...we were fair when we did it in bc so id assume itd be the same..ive seen dkp tear apart if not destroy guilds in the past...hope that doesnt happen here....
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PerzyxIn-Game Rank 1 Post Whore
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re: LOOT SYSTEM
by Perzyx on 2008/12/16 13:11
I am also a fan of loot council, however it doesn't work in our guild. The reason why is because people have not showed up on time or regularly to our raids. Is this because there is no incentive to? Because they can just come and go as they please? Well with DKP it somewhat fixed that. People now have an incentive to show up on time and stay for every raid. If after we start DKP and we get our raiding up and going in 25 mans... and people are showing roughly a 85% -90% attendance ratio, and things are going well... and the consensus of the raid group feels that they prefer Loot Council, we can consider migrating back to it. However, right now in our state of the union we need to address the things that cause our raids to not succeed. One of those is the lack of attendance and discipline.
By the way, those talks of "DKP has destroyed guilds" ... well Loot Council has as well. So has /rolls. Basically any loot system can "destroy" a guild or cause memebers to leave. If the people within the guild exist soley for loot then yes, DKP can destroy a guild. If the people within the guild exist to play a game, a hobby, together and progress with game content as a group, well then I don't think ANY loot system would destroy us as long as that system is fair.
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Vitol
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re: LOOT SYSTEM
by Vitol on 2008/12/16 13:26
I dont know about L C and /rolls destroying guilds...I can only go by what Ive seen and that was 2 end game guilds I was in on another server disbanding due to dkp issues and to be honest most likely it was over greed/tracking imo. Im just pointing out what ive seen in the past.
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Acinas
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re: LOOT SYSTEM
by Acinas on 2008/12/16 14:16
I do agree with Perz though about DKP. It is an incentive to actually show up. I know of a few nights where we called the raid. And if people aren't greedy fucking bastards, excuse the language, they won't be loot whores and will share the gear with the undergeared people. DKP allows for the biggest upgrades to go to the person who puts in the most time, while allowing the lesser geared people (hopefully) to pick up the lower ranked items.
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PerzyxIn-Game Rank 1 Post Whore
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re: LOOT SYSTEM
by Perzyx on 2008/12/16 14:28
Bottom line is that the leadership in this guild is not greedy. This is appearant in the many numerous times that we either win a roll or have has been our turn to take gear, but since we worked ourselves (individually) at bettering our gear through heroics and badges, that we passed on said gear to the lesser geared people in the raid group. Greedy mo-fo's would've said screw you im takin the loot.
We chose DKP becuase we feel it would best serve this guild at the present time just like Loot Council served us best pre-WotLK. Once DKP wouldn't serve us best anymore we can change. The point of the guild is to raid. It is not solely for loot. However loot assists us in our goal of raiding therefore we must think of the guild and think of raiding and progression when we choose how to distribute loot.
_________________ Part-time MM Hunter, Part-time Gigolo, All-the-time Sexxxy mo-fo
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Acinas
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re: LOOT SYSTEM
by Acinas on 2008/12/16 22:32
/Applaud!
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